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Prosecute their Discourse a little further, said to his Friend, (who had likewise taken Notice of the same thing) I halfe expected, Carneades, that after you had so freely declar'd Your doubting, whether there be any Determinate Number of Elements, You would have proceeded to question whether there be any Elements at all. And I confe

Friend; Since, Eleutherius, you will have me Discourse Ex Tempore of the Paradox you mention, I am content, (though more perhaps to express my Obedience, then my Opinion) to tell you that (supposing the Truth of Helmonts and Paracel

favourably with them, I will allow them to take in Earth and Water to their other Principles. Which I consent to, the rather that my Discourse may the better reach the Tenents of the Peripateticks; who cannot plead for any so probably as for those two Elements; that of fire above the Air being Generally by Judicious Men exploded as an

ngled bodies; which not being made of any other bodies, or of one another, are the Ingredients of which all those call'd perfectly mixt Bodies are immediately compounded, and into which

and Water, as component parts of the Universe, or rather of the Terrestrial Globe, not of all mixt bodies. And though I will not peremptorily deny that there may sometimes either a running Mercury, or

son to doubt of a known and important proposition, that the Truth of it is not yet by any competent proof made to appear. And congruously herunto, if I she

eads. Namely, the one, that it is necessary that Nature make use of Elements to constitute the bodies that are repute

Considerations, there are two or t

to her to compound it of. And, if you will allow the relation I mention'd out of Mounsieur De Rochas to be True; then may not only plants, but Animals and Minerals too, be produced out of Water, And however there is little doubt to be made, but that the plants my tryals afforded me as they were like in so many other respects to the rest of the plants of the same Denomination; so they would, in case I had reduc'd them to putrefaction, have likewise produc'd Wormes or other insects, as well as the resembling Vegetables are wont to do; so that Water may, by Variou

ive a much more speedy increment to corn and other Vegetables than Water alone would do: And it hath been assur'd me, by a man experienc'd in such matters, that sometimes when to bring up roots very early, the Mould they were planted in was made over-rich, the very substance of the Plant has tasted of the Dung. And let us also consider a Graft of one kind of Fruit upon the upper bough of a Tree of another kind. As for instance, the Ciens of a Pear upon a White-thorne; for there the ascending Liquor is already alter'd, either by the root, or in its ascent by the bark, or both wayes, and becomes a new mixt body: as may appear by the differing qualities to be met with in the saps of several trees; as particularly, the medicinal vertue of the Birch-Water (which I have sometimes drunk upon Helmonts great a

as easy for us to make experiment in Order to the production of these, as of those. But the growth or increment of Minerals being usually a work of excessively long

est caloris subterranei fabri seu Arch?i fontium & mineralium, Infra terram citissime renasci testantur Histori? Metallic?. Sunt enim loca e quibus si hoc anno sulphur effossum fuerit; intermissa fossione per quadriennium redeunt fossores & omnia sulphure, ut antea, rursus inveniunt plena. Pliny Relates, In Itali? Insula Ilva, gigni ferri metallum. Strabo multo expressius; effossum ibi metallum semper regenerari. Nam si effossio spatio centum annorum intermittebatur, & iterum illuc revertebantur, fossores reperisse maximam copiam ferri regeneratam. Which history not only is countenanced by Fallopius, from the Incom which the Iron of that Island yielded the Duke of Florence in his time; but is mention'd more expressely to our purpose, by the Learned Cesalpinus. Vena (sayes he) ferri copiosissima est in Italia; ob eam nobilitata Ilva Tirrheni maris Insula incredibili copia, etiam nostris temporibus eam gignens: Nam terra qu? eruitur dum vena effoditur tota, procedente tempore in venam convertitur. Which last clause is therefore very notable, because from thence we may deduce, that earth, by a Metalline plastick principle latent in it, may be in processe of time chang'd into a metal. And even AgricolaIn Lygiis, ad Sagam opidum; in pratis eruitur ferrum, fossis ad altitudinem bipedaneam actis. Id decennio renatum denuo foditur non aliter ac Ilv? ferrum. himself, though the Chymists complain of him as their adversary, acknowledges thus much and more; by telling us that at a Town called Saga in Germany, they dig up Iron in the Fields, by sinking ditches two foot deep; And adding, that within the space of ten years the Ditches are digged again for Iron since produced, As the same Metal is wont t

e Authours, and yet they are both very memorable in

h at that time was little esteem'd. This Workman after some weeks Labour, had by a Crack appearing in the Stone upon a Stroak given near the wall, an Invitation Given him to Work his Way through, which as soon as he had done, his Eyes were saluted by a mighty stone or Lump which stood in the middle of the Cleft (that had a hollow place behind it) upright, and in shew like an armed-man; but consisted of pure fine Silver having no Vein or Ore by it, or any other Additament, but stood there free, having only underfoot something like a burnt matter; and

in them a warm Steam (not of that malignant sort which the Germains call Shwadt, which (sayes he) is a meer poyson, and often suffocates the Diggers), which fasten'd it self to the Walls; and that coming again to review it after a couple of dayes, he discern'd that it was all very

Earths or those Metalline steams (wherewith probably such Earths are plentifully imbu'd) do contain in them some seminal Rudiment, or some thing Equivalent thereunto; by whose plastick power the rest of the matter, though perhaps Terrestrial and heavy, is in Tract of time fashion'd into this or That metalline Ore; almost as I formerly noted, that fair water was by the seminal Principle of Mint, Pompions, and other Vegetables, contriv'd into Bodies answerable to such Seeds. And that such Alterations of Terrestrial matter are not impossible, seems evident from that notable Practice of the Boylers of Salt-Petre, who unanimously observe, as well here in England as in other Countries; That if an Earth pregnant with Nitre be depriv'd, by th

that a kind of mineral which abounds in that Salt, being kept within Doors and not expos'd (as is usual) to the free Air and Rains, did o

so it were not necessary that Nature should make up all Metals and other Minerals of Pre-existent Salt, and Sulphur, and Mercury, though such Bodies might by Fire be obtained from it. Which one consideration duly weigh'd is very considerable in the present controversy: And to this agree well the Relations of our two German Chymists; for besides that it cannot be convincingly prov'd, it is not so much as likely that so languid and moderate a heat as that within the Mines, should carry up to so great a height, though in the forme of fumes, Salt, Sulphur and

ans and Vulgar Chymists do not, I presume, know any better then I, a priori, of what ingredients Nature compounds Metals and Minerals. For their Argument to prove that those Bodies are made up of such Principles, is drawn a posteriori; I mean from this, that upon the Analysis of Mineral bodies they are re

erning Minerals, I will begin the remaining part of m

not hitherto taught us by any way in use among them to separate any one principle, whether Salt, Sulphur, or Mercury, from all sorts of Minerals without exceptio

elp of the fire out of a metal or other Mineral Body, if we will not suppose that it was not pre-existent in it, but produc'd by the action of the fire upon the Concrete, we may at least suppose this Quicksilver to have been a perfect Body of its own kind (though perhaps lesse heterogeneous then more secundary mixts) which happen'd to be mingl'd per minima, and coagulated with the other substances, whereof the Metal or Mineral consisted. As may be exemplyfied partly by Native Vermillion wherein the Quicksilver and Sulphur being exquisitely blended both with one another, and that other c

herefore to retort the argument upon my Adversaries, I may conclude, that since there are some bodies in which, for ought appears, there is neither Earth nor Water; I may be

Remember I read not long since in the Learned Josephus Acosta,Acosta Natural and Moral history of the Indies, L. 3. c. 5, p. 212. who relates it upon his own observation; that in America, (where he long lived) there is a kind of Silver which the Indians call Papas, and sometimes (sayes he) they find pieces very fine and pure like

the good fortune to see a mineral that was there digg'd up, wherein pieces of Gold of the length, and also

rein there grew here and there in the Stone, which looked like a kind of sparr, divers little Lumps of fine Gold,

nd then seen some that weighed many pounds; to which I shall add, that I my self have seen a Lump of Oar not long since digged up, in whose stony part there grew, almost like Trees, divers parcels though not of Gold, yet of (what perhaps Mineralists will more

ive me no cause to doubt but that out of most of them five differing Substances may be obtain'd by the fire, yet I

change of Texture not impossible to be wrought by the Fire and other Agents that have the Faculty not only to dissociate the smal parts of Bodies, but afterwards to connect them after a new manner, the same parcell of matter may acquire or lose such accidents as may suffice to Denominate it Salt, or Sulphur, or Earth. If I were fully to clear to you my apprehensions concerning this matter, I should perhaps be obliged to acquaint you with divers of the Conjectures (for I must yet call them no more) I have had Concerning the Principles of things purely Corporeal: For though because I seem not satisfi'd with the Vulgar Doctrines, either of the Perip

r; by which I mean those Various Determinations, and that Skilfull Guidance of the motions of the small parts of the Universal matter by the most wise Author of things, which were necessary at the beginning to turn that confus'd Chaos into this Orderly and beautifull World; and Especially, to contrive the Bodies of Animals and Plants, and

say, as the World now is, because the present Fabrick of the Universe, and especially the seeds of things, together with the establisht Course of Nature, is a

les (which, I need not tell you are Magnitude, Figure and Weight) are Themselves Deducible from Matter and Motion; since the Latter of these Variously Agitating, and, as it were, Distracting the Former, must needs disjoyne its parts; which being Actually separated must Each of them necessarily both be of some Size

ecause it may enable the Body in which it happens to be, both to continue in a State of Rest till some external force put it out of that state, and to concur to the production of divers Changes in the bodies that hit against it, by either quite stopping or lessning their Motion (wh

g Qualities of the small parts which are necessary to intitle the Body whereto they belong to this or that Peculiar Denomination; and discriminating it from others to appropriate it to a Determinate Kind of Things, (as Yellowness, Fixtness, such a Degree of Weight, and of Ductility, do make the Portion of matter wherein they Concur, to be reckon'd among perfect metals, and obtain the name of Gold.) This Aggregate or result of Accidents you may, if You please, call either Structure or Textur

ing, partly, to bring some Light and Confirmation to divers passages of my discourse to you; partly to shew you, that I do not (as you seem to have suspected) embrace all Epicurus his principles; but Dissent from him in some main things, as well as from Aristotle and the Chymists, in others; & partly also, or rather chiefly, to intimate to you the grounds upon which I likewise differ from Helmont in this, that whereas he ascribes almost all things, and even diseases themselves, to their determinate Seeds; I am of opinion, that besides the peculiar Fabricks of the Bodies of Plants and Animals (and perhaps also of some Metals and Minerals) which I take to be the Effects of seminal principles, there are many other

rtificial Productions we may take notice (to skip the Crystals of Tartar) of Glass, Regulus Martis Stellatus, and particularly of the Sugar of Lead, which though made of that insipid Metal and sour salt of Vinager, has in

easie to perswade you that the Fire may as well produce so

tions, We may well doubt whether any of these Heterogeneities be (I say not pre-existent, so as to convene together, when a plant or Animal is to be constituted but) so much as in-existent in the Concrete whence they are obtain'd, when the Chymist first goes about to resolve it; For not to insist upon the un-inflamable Spirit of such Concretes, because that may be pretended to be but a mixture of Phlegme and Salt; the Oyle or Sulphur of Vegetables or Animals is, according to him, reducible by the help of Lixiviate Salts into Sope; as that Sope is by the

You, if I durst acquaint You with all I could say upon that subject. And hence by the way you may also conclude that the Sulphur and Mercury, as they call them, that Chymists are wont to obtain from compound Bodies by the Fire, may possibly in many Cases be the productions of it; since if the same bo

nowledging that Earth and Water are Elementary Ingredients, though not of Mineral Concretes, yet of all Animal and Vegetable Bodies; Since if any of these o

Earth (and especially the former) as 'tis to reject the Tria Prima, from being th

rt of the Salt in the form of a Liquor. And to satisfy some ingenious men, That a great part of this Liquor was still true sea salt brought by the Operation of the Fire into Corpuscles so small, and perhaps so advantageously shap'd, as to be capable of the forme of a Fluid Body, He did in my presence poure to such spiritual salts a due proportion of the spirit (or salt and Phlegme) of Urine, whereby having evaporated the superfluous moisture, he soon obtain'd such another Concrete, both as to tast and smell, and easie sublimableness as common Salt Armoniack, which you know is made up of grosse and undistill'd sea salt united with the salts of Urine and of Soot, which two are very neer of kin to each other. And further, to manifest that the Corpuscles of sea salt and the Saline ones of Urine retain their several Natures in this Concrete, He mixt it with a convenient quantity of Salt of Tartar, and committing it to Distillation soon regain'd his spirit of Urine in a liquid form by its self, the Sea salt staying behind with the Salt of Tartar. Wherefore it is very possible that dry Bodies may by the Fire be reduc'd to Liquors without any separation of Elements, but barely by a certain kind of Dissipation and Comminution of the matter, whereby its parts are brought into a new state. And if it be still objected, that the Phlegme of mixt Bodies must be reputed water, because so weak a tast needs but a very small proportion of Salt to impart it; It may be reply'd, that for ought appears, common Salt and divers other bodies, though they be distill'd never so dry, and in never so close Vessels, will yield each of them pretty store of a Liquor, wherein though (as I lately noted) Saline Corpuscles abound, Yet there is

t may very possibly be, that the small Parts of a Body may be of such a Size and Shape, as either by their extream Littleness, or by their slenderness, or by their Figure, to be unable to pierce into and make a perceptible Impression upon the Nerves or Membranous parts of the Organs of Tast, and yet may be fit to work otherwise upon divers other Bodies than meer Water can, and consequently to Disclose it self to be of a Nature farr enough from Elementary. In Silke dyed Red or of any other Colour, whilst many Contiguous Threads makes up a skein, the Colour of the Silke is conspicuous; but if only a very few of them be lookt upon, the Colour will appear much fainter then before. But if You take out one simple Thread, you shall not easily be able to discern any Colour at all; So subtile an Object having not the Force to make upon the Optick Nerve an Impression great enough to be taken Notice of. It is also observ'd, that the best sort of Oyl-Olive is almost tastless, and yet I need

Difference of Tasts in several waters, which one un-accustomed to drink water would take to be all alike insipid. And this is the first of my two Considerations; the Other is, That it is not impossible that the Corpuscles into which a body is dissipated by the Fire may by the Operation of the same fire have their figures so altered, or may be by associations with one another brought into little Masses of such a Size and Shape, as not to be fit to make sensible Impressions on the Tongue. And that you may not think such alterations impossible, be pleased to consider with me, that not only the sharpest Spirit of Vinager having dissolved as much Corall as it can, will Coagulate with it into a Substance, which though solu

se to admit Elementary water for a constant Ingredient of Mixt Bodies,

e Sulphur, came into the pot; and that the Sulphur it self had only been dissolv'd in Linseed Oyle; this Regulus he found heavy and malleable almost as Lead; having caus'd a Goldsmith to draw him a Wire of it, he found it to be of the Fairest copper, and so rightly colour'd, that a Jew of Prague offer'd him a great price for it. And of this Metal he sayes he had 12 loth (or six ounces) out of one pound of Ashes or F?ces. And this Story may well incline us to suspect that since the Caput Mortuum of the Sulphur was kept so long in the fire before it was found to be any thing else then a Terra damnata, there may be divers other Residences of Bodies which are wont to pass only for the Terrestrial F?ces of things, and therefore to be thrown away as soon as the Distillation or Calcination of the Body that yielded them is ended; which yet if they were long and Skilfully examin'd by the fire would appear to be differing from Elementary Earth. And I have taken notice of the unwarrantable forwardness of common Chymists to pronounce things useless F?ces, by observing how often they reject the Caput Mortuum of Verdegrease; which is yet so farr from deserving that Name, that not only by stro

oo heavy for the Fire to carry away; the aggregate of which Corpuscles is wont to be call'd Ashes or Earth; So other Agents may resolve the Concrete into Minute Parts, after so differing a manner as not to produce any Caput mort

ls of the Earth make Decompounded Bodies, as we see in Vitriol, Cinnaber, and even in Sulphur it self; I will not urge that the Fire divides new Milk into five differing Substances; but Runnet and Acid Liquors divide it into a Coagulated matter and a thin Whey: And on the other side churning divides it into Butter and Butter-milk, which may either of them be yet reduc'd to other substances differing from the former. I will not presse this, I say, nor other instances of this Nature, because I cannot in few words answer what may be objected, that these Concretes sequestred without the help of the Fire may by it be further divided into Hypostatical Principles. But I will rather represent, That whereas the same spirit of Wine will dissociate the Parts of Camphire, and make them one Liquor with it self; Aqua Fortis will also disjoyn them, and put them into motion; but so as to keep them together, and yet alter their Texture into the form of an Oyle. I know also an uncompounded Liquor, that an extraordinary Chymist would not allow to be so much as Saline, which doth (as I have try'd) from Coral it self (as fixt as divers judicious writers assert that Concrete to be) not only obtain a noble Tincture, Without the Intervention of Nitre or other Salts; but will carry over the Tincture in Distillation. And if some reasons did not forbid me, I could now tell you of a Menstruum I make my self, that doth more odly dissociate the parts of Minerals very fixt in the fire. So that it seems not incredible, that there may be some Agent or way of Operation found, whereby this or that Concrete, if not all Firme Bodies, may be resolv'd into parts so very minute and so unapt to stick close to one another, that none of them may be fixt enough to stay behind in a strong Fire, and to be incapable of Distillation; nor consequently to be look'd upon as Earth. But to return to Helmont, the same Authour somewhere supply's me with another Argument against the Earth's being such an Element as my Adversaries would have it. For he somewhere affirms, that he can reduce all the Terrestrial parts of mixt bodies into insipid water; whence we may argue against the Earths being one of their Elements, even from that Notion of Elements which

out any other Food for three years; in which space it was constantly augmented, till at last it could not come out of the Place at which it was put in, and at length was too big for the glass it self though that were of a large capacity. And because there is no just reason to doubt, that this Fish, if Distill'd, would have yielded the like differing substances with other Animals: And However, because the Mint which I had out of water afforded me upon Distillation a good quantity of Ch

s luckily answer your own Arguments, as those of your Antagonists, I mean (pursues he) that part of your Concessions, wherein you cannot but remember that you supply'd your Adversaries with an Example to prove that there may be Ele

Operations of the several Agents whereby the Parts of a Body come to be Dissipated. As if (for Instance) you dissolve the purer sort of Vitriol in common Water, the Liquor will swallow up the Mineral, and so Dissociate its Corpuscles, that they will seem to make up but one Liquor with those of the water; and yet each of these Corpuscles retains its Nature and Texture, and remains a Vitriolate and Compounded Body. But if the same Vitriol be exposed to a strong Fire, it will then be divided not only, as before, into smaller parts, but into Heterogeneous Substances, each of the Vitriolate Corpuscles that remain'd entire in the water, being it self upon the Destruction of its former Texture dissipated or divided into new Particles of differing Qualities. But Instances more fitly applicable to this purpose, I have already given you. Wherefore to return to what I told you about the Destruction of Gold, that Experiment Invites me to Represent to you, that Though there were either Saline, or Sulphureous, or Terrestrial Portions of Matter, whose parts were so small, so firmly united together, or of a figure so fit to make them cohere to one another, (as we see that in quicksilver broken into little Globes, the Parts brought to touch one another do immediately re-imbody) that neither the Fire, nor the usual Agents employ'd by Chymists, are pierceing enough to divide their Parts, so as to destroy the Texture of the single Corpuscles; yet it would not necessarily follow, That such Permanent Bodies were Elementary,

er these Things, I say, and that the varying of either the figure, or the Size, or the Motion, or the Situation, or Connexion of the Corpuscles whereof any of these Bodies is compos'd, may alter the Fabrick of it, you will possibly be invited to suspect, with me, that there is no great need that Nature should alwayes have Elements before hand, whereof to make such Bodies as we call mixts. And that it is not so easie as Chymists and others have hit

everal parts of it, is turn'd into the Wood, Bark, Pith, Leaves, &c. of the Vine; The same Liquor may be further dry'd, and fashon'd into Vine-buds, and these a while after are advanced unto sour Grapes, which express'd yield Verjuice, a Liquor very differing in several qualities both from Wine and other Liquors obtainable from the Vine: These soure Grapes being by the heat of the Sun concocted and ripened, turne to well tasted Grapes; These if dry'd in the Sun and Distill'd, afford a f?tid Oyle and a piercing Empyreumatical Spirit, but not a Vinous Spirit; These dry'd Grapes or Raisins boyl'd in a convenient proportion of Water make a sweet Liquor, which being betimes distill'd afford an Oyle and Spirit much like those of the Raisins themselves; If the juice of the Grapes be squeez'd out and put to Ferment, it first becomes a sweet and turbid Liquor, then grows lesse sweet and more clear, and then affords in common Distillations not an Oyle but a Spirit, which, though inflamable like Oyle, differs much from it, in that it is not fat, and that it will readily mingle with Water. I have likewise without Addition obtain'd in processe of time (and by an easie way which I am ready to teach you) from one of the noblest sorts of Wine, pretty store

o the Productions of this transmuted Water a few other substances, we may much encrease the Variety of such Bodies; although in this second sort of Productions, the Vinous parts seem scarce to retain any thing of the much more fix'd Bodies wherewith they were mingl'd; but only to have by their Mixture with them acquir'd such a Disposition, that in their recess occasion'd by the

ery farr from thinking (answers Carneades) that the Salt I have mention'd is that which Paracelsus and Helmont mean when they speak of Sal Tartari Volatile, and ascribe such great things to it. For the Salt I speak of falls extreamly short of those Virtues, not seeming in its Tast, Smel, and other Obvious Qualities, to differ very much (though something it do differ) from Salt of Harts-horn, and other Volatile Salts drawn from the Distill'd Parts of Animals. Nor have I yet made Tryals enough to be sure, that it is a pure Salt of Tartar without pa

our to a great height; this Spirit abounds in the Salt I told you of, part of which may easily enough be separated by the way I use in such cases, which is, to put the Liquor into a glass Egg, or bolthead with a long and narrow Neck. For if this be plac'd a little inclining in hot sand, there will sublime up a fine Salt, which, as I told you, I find to be much of kin to the Volatile Salts of Animals: For like them it has a Saltish, not an Acid Salt; it hisses upon the Affusion of Spirit of Nitre, or Oyle of Vitriol; it precipitates Corals Dissolv'd in Spirit of Vinager; it turnes the blew Syrup of Violets immediately green; it presently turnes the Solution of Sublimate into a Milkie whiteness; and in summ, has divers Operations like those that I have observ'd in that sort of Salts to which I have resembled it: and is so Volatile, that for Di

efore ascribe to the salt of the Husks alter'd by their Co-Mixture with the copper (though the Fire afterwards Divorce and Transmute them) because I found this later in the bottom of the Retort in the Forme of a Crocus or redish powder: And because Copper is of too sluggish a Nature to be forc'd over in close Vessels by no stronger a heat. And that which is also somewhat Remarkable in the Destillation of good Verdigrease, (or at least of that sort that I us'd) is this, that I Never could observe that it yielded me any oyl, (unless a little black slime which was separated in Rectification may pass for Oyle) though both Tartar and Vinager, (especially the former) will by Destillation yield a Moderate proportion of it. If likewise you pour Spirit of Vinager upon Calcin'd Lead, the Acid Sa

oken Corpuscles, or such Corpuscles among Themselves) and the same Agents partly by Altering the shape or bigness of the Constituent Corpuscles of a Body, partly by driving away some of them, partly by blending others with them, and partly by some new manner of connecting them, may give the whole portion of matter a new Texture of its

into new Compounds; Since, I say, these things are so, I see not why we must needs believe that there are any Primogeneal and simple Bodies, of which as of Pre-exsistent Elements Nature is obliged to compound all others. Nor do I see why we may not conceive that she may produce the Bodies accounted mixt out of one another by Variously altering and contriving their minute parts, without resolving the matter into any such simple or Homogeneous substances as are pretended. Neither, to dispatch, do I see why it should be counted absur'd to think, that when a Body is resolv'd by the Fire into its suppos'd simple Ingredients, those substances are not true and proper Elements, but rather were, as it were, Accidentally produc'd by the fire, which by Dissipating a Body into minute Parts does, if those parts be shut up in Close Vessels, for the most part necessarily bring them to Associate Themselves after another manner than before, and so bring Them into Bodies of such Different Consistences as the

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